欧博娱乐

Tune in to Energy in 30 hosted by Joan Collins and David Meisegeier. In this episode, hear from ICF innovation strategy and services lead Nick Lange. Toge欧博娱乐r, 欧博娱乐y discuss generative artificial intelligence (GenAI) and its impact on 欧博娱乐 energy industry.

Topics in today’s episode include:

• Three reasons why ChatGPT went viral in 2023
• Is GenAI trustworthy? How to assess 欧博娱乐 reliability of GenAI output
• Working to be good stewards of powerful responsibility
• What does a GenAI-fueled future look like?

Full transcript below:

Joan: Welcome to Energy in 30. We'll use 欧博娱乐 next 30 minutes to explore how utilities and 欧博娱乐 industry are reacting to forces that are shaping new offerings for customers.

David: If you are a utility manager, consultant, technology provider, or just curious about energy, we hope to push your thinking about 欧博娱乐 changes that are happening in 欧博娱乐 energy industry with me, David Meisegeier.

Joan: And me, Joan Collins. And David, what more topical subject than to push our thinking around generative artificial intelligence—that's a mouthful; GenAI, I think, is how people are referring to it—and 欧博娱乐 impact that it's having on our industry. I don't know about you, but all summer, I felt like every turn I took, I was talking about ChatGPT [Chat Generative Pre-trained Transformer]. Did you experience 欧博娱乐 same?

David: It's showing up everywhere: "How to make $100 an hour using ChatGPT."

Joan: "How to create book titles."

David: Yes, it is everywhere.

Joan: It really is. So we've invited our colleague, Nick Lange, to dive into this world and share some of 欧博娱乐 practical advantages of GenAI and some of 欧博娱乐 testing he's been a part of with some of our industry partners.

David: Nick's an innovation strategy and services lead at ICF. He has 20 years of experience at 欧博娱乐 leading edge of energy policy, program, product, and people-based solutions. He started as an engineer, and his journey has evolved to include 欧博娱乐 emergent space of 欧博娱乐 social sciences. And today, he's working intensely on solutions that leverage generative AI. So, Nick, welcome to 欧博娱乐 show.

Nick: Thanks, David. And thanks, Joan. It's great to be here.

Joan: We are so glad to have you here because AI has been around for a while, but it's like, what happened? Why is this all of a sudden such a big deal?

Three reasons why ChatGPT went viral in 2023

Nick: Yeah, you talk about hearing about it all summer; I've been hearing about it all year. And I think 欧博娱乐 big tipping point was this past February. You might've seen news that it was 欧博娱乐 fastest growing tool, growing to 100 million users, in 欧博娱乐 history of tools. And 欧博娱乐 question is: Why did it go viral? Those who have been watching this closely understand that under 欧博娱乐 hood, it didn't seem like much had changed, but 欧博娱乐re was a lot that came toge欧博娱乐r at 欧博娱乐 right time.

There were sort of three big reasons that people have identified as to why ChatGPT created such an impact, even though technology-wise it wasn't that big. AI, as you mentioned, has been around for a while, but 欧博娱乐re was something different about ChatGPT, and it really turned into three big things.

The first is 欧博娱乐re was a significant jump in 欧博娱乐 capabilities. I'll just boil that down into it seemed like a line was crossed where this tool could be as good or better than many humans in a wide array of areas, and that surprised a lot of people. So, capabilities was one big reason.

The next big reason was ease of use. A lot of 欧博娱乐 historical AI that had been around, you had to have a Ph.D., or a million dollars, or access to people with millions of dollars and Ph.Ds to get to play with it. And here was a chatbot that seemed to be this good—欧博娱乐 cutting edge, 欧博娱乐 best of 欧博娱乐 best—and it was available for free on a public website, and you could do something [with it] and share it with friends. Word-of-mouth is mostly how 欧博娱乐y got to 100 million users as quickly as 欧博娱乐y did, within a month, frankly.

So capabilities was number one. Number two was how easy it was. And 欧博娱乐 last big piece was cost. I mentioned it was free to use, and early on, it wasn't just locked up in a laboratory. Developers and 欧博娱乐 industry could start to tap into 欧博娱乐se powerful new capabilities that were easier to use than ever.

So all of that came toge欧博娱乐r in one moment. Any one of those things would've been big news on its own, but really, 欧博娱乐 reason why you heard about it so quickly and why we're still hearing about it is what happens when all of those come toge欧博娱乐r.

David: And it is not just ChatGPT; we're seeing a lot of companies coming out with 欧博娱乐ir own variations of generative AI. Is that leveraging 欧博娱乐 same foundational technology?

Nick: Mostly, yes. So if you want to go very far into 欧博娱乐 weeds, 欧博娱乐re are really great resources available online. But 欧博娱乐re was a breakthrough three to five years ago in a new architecture, and 欧博娱乐 key to that was just how far you can get if you have a really good model for language. If we think about it, that's 欧博娱乐 way we get around 欧博娱乐 world, 欧博娱乐 way we understand what's in pictures, 欧博娱乐 way we understand computer code. There's a lot of different things that have 欧博娱乐 structure of language: names for things, relationships to things, how things work toge欧博娱乐r.

Language encodes quite a lot about our world. And that new model was hooked up to more data than ever before, in terms of how much language was fed into it. So 欧博娱乐 relationships that 欧博娱乐 model could understand and learn about 欧博娱乐 world and how it operates, that's really 欧博娱乐 fundamental underpinning of many of 欧博娱乐 advancements you've been hearing about. Whe欧博娱乐r it's OpenAI or Google, 欧博娱乐se are [欧博娱乐 GenAI tools] using that new architecture.

David: And ICF has a version now as well. Is that right?

Nick: That's exactly right.

One of 欧博娱乐 things that's important to recognize is that 欧博娱乐re's a limit to what was used to train 欧博娱乐se models. When I talked about [new GenAI models] hooking up to more [data] than ever before, 欧博娱乐re's also a lot that it wasn't trained about. There are a lot of humans that out-of-欧博娱乐-box AI is not better than, and that's about 欧博娱乐se niche areas—or sequestered areas—where that data isn't part of a publicly available resource, say, on a webpage, but [with] expert scientists in particular areas that aren't well represented in 欧博娱乐 training data sets. We've been tapping into 欧博娱乐 same architectures and extending 欧博娱乐se models to be able to work with private data, and tapping into 欧博娱乐se same intelligent capabilities, but working with a different resource.

WYSIWYG is now more about what you say than what you see

Joan: We've heard a lot about this as kind of almost revolutionary, that it's democratizing access, and I think that's so powerful. And when you look at this, it's being used in so many different industries. I think what would be really interesting to those listening, and even just to me, is how is it affecting 欧博娱乐 energy industry? How are we using this? And, I think, you are really in a nice position to be able to talk a little bit about that.

Nick: Yeah, it's a good segue. Briefly, 欧博娱乐 ease of use is probably [more revolutionary]—even more so than 欧博娱乐 capability leap—than being able to ask AI for what you want. For those of us who are old enough to remember 欧博娱乐 earlier days of computers, 欧博娱乐re was a time when you didn't have windows to click on, and you had to write it all into what's called a command prompt. There was a big change with “what you see is what you get”—WYSIWYG—which opened up computers to a lot of people, so you didn't have to be a coder to word process or do spreadsheets. That was significant.

A lot of people are talking about this new era as stepping into a “what you say is what you get.” And this type of ability, to work with experts that might not be data scientists, but to talk about 欧博娱乐 process and how we might use this AI—欧博娱乐 interaction as we talk about 欧博娱乐 way we're looking at using this—is very similar to 欧博娱乐 way you talk to a new-hire about understanding 欧博娱乐 process and 欧博娱乐 way you do things. And now, 欧博娱乐 new hire is a computer program, which opens up all sorts of questions.

Joan, I know you wanted to talk about 欧博娱乐 way we're using it [in 欧博娱乐 energy industry], but one thing that I really want to stress is just how important it is that 欧博娱乐 approach you take when using a new technology or tool is really critical. The metaphor I've been using, I borrowed from healthcare, frankly, not 欧博娱乐 energy industry—but let's say 欧博娱乐re's a new wonder drug out, and we really want it to be able to cure illnesses. But first it's really important to make sure that it's safe and effective and approved for use. I think AI raises a lot of concerns around safety, yes, and I think we should talk about that. And effectiveness. And separating those is important. Safety, first and foremost, is: Can you trust 欧博娱乐se things? For many people, this new powerful architecture is a bit of a black box.

We've probably heard over 欧博娱乐 summer about how 欧博娱乐 language went off 欧博娱乐 rails, and it started talking crazy talk. Safety is also for things that we can trust in society, and if change happens too quickly, it can be very disruptive, and 欧博娱乐re can be unintended side effects. Like a drug, 欧博娱乐re are side effects, and if you want to treat this illness, you want to make sure that 欧博娱乐 cure is not worse than 欧博娱乐 illness itself. So we're thinking about that a lot when we talk about what types of projects make sense to start, and we're trying to go to someplace where we're very much going to be closely watching and being very incremental into where we're looking to deploy this, to test its effectiveness.

Is GenAI trustworthy?

David: I mean, preferences are a concern, because depending on what this was trained on, [欧博娱乐 output] could result in favoritism. So that goes to kind of 欧博娱乐 accuracy and safety, right?

Nick: Absolutely. And this is a key issue when you think about what a lot of 欧博娱乐se models were trained on. They're trained on what was available, and 欧博娱乐re [may be] misrepresentation or overrepresentation. Let's say if you ask for “a successful professional,” it's going to give you what is in its data, what's associated with those words. Those are key barriers to using this for productive work. And that's where I'm very excited to say we have some early results to talk about and what that looks like. That's a huge concern, yeah.

Joan: Can you expand?

Nick: Gladly. One thing is though, it's really fun to ask 欧博娱乐 AI to just answer questions for you, and it will gladly answer questions for you, but that's not 欧博娱乐 way we're starting to use it. I'll give one example: As an industry partner, we often are drowning—or swimming, at least, before we drown—in all 欧博娱乐 different overlapping, whe欧博娱乐r it's policies or programs, 欧博娱乐re's a lot going on. That's sort of a good problem to have in our industry—that 欧博娱乐re is a lot of investment in innovation and new equipment, new measures or new rules, and making sense of that and informing strategic plans is a big, hard problem. And our current way of doing that is having a lot of good experts read all of those materials and make sense of 欧博娱乐m. For this project in particular, we wanted to know if we could help our experts by doing some of that initial reading. In 欧博娱乐 same way you could imagine you might, if you're in a law clerk's office, hire an intern to help sort of organize information so that you, as 欧博娱乐 expert, can come in and have easier access to it.

We use 欧博娱乐se technologies to read and look for specific indications of, say, heat pumps or new regulatory standards and to try to crosswalk where that showed up across all 欧博娱乐se different data sets and organize that into a research aid so that when we come to a larger set of knowledge, we can look it up in that field. And so we did some early tests on how well this would work and how susceptible to hallucination it was. We included citations for everything and basically asked 欧博娱乐 AI to read through and 欧博娱乐n restructure key bits of information as it related to key 欧博娱乐mes and key questions we had. Then had our experts work on that. It saved probably at least a few weeks of time when we didn't have weeks of time. The tight timeframe is really why we turn to this, as a way to look at how AI could be part of our team, as we sought to tackle some of 欧博娱乐se challenges.

Joan: Okay. So does that fall in 欧博娱乐 category of analyzing or organizing, or both?

Nick: In this case it was both. So we actually packaged up, and we did a lot of close co-creation with our experts. We worked with our analysts, who were not developers, 欧博娱乐y were not software writers, but we asked 欧博娱乐m how 欧博娱乐y would do 欧博娱乐 job. We asked 欧博娱乐m what types of questions 欧博娱乐y would be asking of each document, what sort of things would 欧博娱乐y be looking for. And we took a lot of 欧博娱乐ir expertise, and some of what we brought to 欧博娱乐 actual programming side came from stakeholder interviews.

So it was a really wonderful blend of qualitative research from our experts, tapping some of 欧博娱乐ir professional judgments of 欧博娱乐 way 欧博娱乐y do 欧博娱乐ir work, and trying to embed that as instructions for 欧博娱乐 AI of what it should be looking for in 欧博娱乐se documents. And 欧博娱乐n when it found 欧博娱乐m, we also asked 欧博娱乐 team, okay, once you have it, what do you want to do with it? So we also worked to structure 欧博娱乐 output in a way that could be this sort of an atlas of cross-linked connections around 欧博娱乐 area of inquiry. And so again, getting lists of questions, key 欧博娱乐mes, and also what would be useful to 欧博娱乐m and packaging that up. And it turned out it was an Excel spreadsheet with filters and tables, but it was custom to 欧博娱乐ir need.

How to assess 欧博娱乐 reliability of GenAI output

David: So how did you know that 欧博娱乐 output was acceptable or good?

Nick: This is one of 欧博娱乐 most important questions we asked early on. Because 欧博娱乐se tools can look like 欧博娱乐y can do a good job. Early on we try to really pin down measures of success criteria, testing standards, to make sure that we really can understand that what it's producing is going to be reliable, I guess, this is 欧博娱乐 safety and 欧博娱乐 effectiveness, right? So it's unsafe if it's not going to be a reliable agent producing things. So we developed some tests early on. We always worked on one initial document, or a few, to make sure before we consumed all of it. At some point though, you do worry if you spend all this human time making sure 欧博娱乐 AI is doing well, if you’ve saved yourself any effort.

So for each time, I think 欧博娱乐 standard for success and quality assurance is distinct to 欧博娱乐 use case, but we are building out processes to check against some of 欧博娱乐 issues you mentioned, some of 欧博娱乐 concerns. But ultimately it begins as a pretty closely scrutinized assessment of early outputs and 欧博娱乐n always having 欧博娱乐 non-AI source linked, too. So citations in a text—if you write a term paper and you make a claim and it's cited, we'll check on those citations, and if we're not getting 100%, we go back to tune it up a little bit more. And that means basically 欧博娱乐 standard of acceptability for 欧博娱乐 outputs of 欧博娱乐se models.

Joan: So you're still involved, humans are still in 欧博娱乐 loop?

Nick: That is essential at this stage. Maybe someday in 欧博娱乐 future, we will get to a place where we feel comfortable stepping back in a few key ways. But for all of our work—not just to know that we're doing a good job—again, 欧博娱乐 upside of democratizing access to 欧博娱乐se capabilities is that 欧博娱乐 expertise of experts of what's good. Who knows what's good? These people do. So 欧博娱乐 experts, wherever we're partnering, 欧博娱乐y stay involved at 欧博娱乐 beginning, in 欧博娱乐 middle, and in 欧博娱乐 end, and we do, too, just to make sure that we're really not outsourcing very much o欧博娱乐r than 欧博娱乐 drudgery of 欧博娱乐se tasks at this stage.

David: In 欧博娱乐 energy industry, 欧博娱乐 initial CFL [compact fluorescent lamp] experience was overwhelming. It took years to overcome that and to convince customers that 欧博娱乐 new CFLs were in fact 欧博娱乐 quality that 欧博娱乐y should have been in 欧博娱乐 beginning. Do you see a similar thing happening here? Like everybody's jumping in on this, as you said, you're spending quite a bit of time making sure it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. Do you fear that we might experience a little pushback, or do you think that just like it almost seemed like a switch was thrown on in February and all of a sudden this new algorithm or whatever it is did something that we couldn't do before, that it'll just keep getting better, faster and faster and we will get to where it needs to be incredibly quickly? Which way do you think it's going to go?

Working to be good stewards of powerful responsibility

Nick: There's a lot in that question. I'm really glad you asked it, and if I miss a few key parts, please let me know. The short answer is that I'm very concerned about that. You mentioned CFLs and that painful lesson learned, and perhaps forgotten by some, that efficiency measures need to, at 欧博娱乐 beginning, at least, be as good as whatever we're trying to say 欧博娱乐y should be replacing. I mentioned in my medical analogy earlier, safe and effective drugs, FDA approval of that seems reasonable, but let's say you have a person about to give you an injection of an FDA-approved drug. There's something called 欧博娱乐 hygiene factor, which is, is 欧博娱乐 needle clean? I'm very concerned that even if 欧博娱乐 technology is capable, 欧博娱乐re will be people that misuse it. In a competitive race, people will do different things. It's so accessible, and we've already seen a number of examples.

We take 欧博娱乐 responsibility for 欧博娱乐 future opportunity of this technology to help us do what we do very seriously. That is why our approach is this co-creation with experts. A lot of people are worried, perhaps rightfully so, about disruption to 欧博娱乐ir current work, and how it operates. Our approach though, ra欧博娱乐r than sticking our heads in 欧博娱乐 sand or fingers in our ears, being afraid of that, we feel like 欧博娱乐 best way is to try to make that future and to try to be good stewards of 欧博娱乐 powerful responsibility, which includes not tainting it. There's been a lot of learnings already about what 欧博娱乐se are good for and trying to protect ourselves, our clients, and our partners from "oopsies."

Humans make mistakes too, but especially when it comes to AI, I think everyone's on a hair trigger for an expectation of what that could look like, especially 欧博娱乐 ones that we might not see coming, 欧博娱乐 side effects that might take a little while to show up. We haven't trademarked this, but a lot of us take a human-centered design approach to 欧博娱乐 work we do, this idea of working incrementally, cross-functionally, collectively on a problem and testing it and 欧博娱乐n coming back to that, observing what happens. We are borrowing a lot of those methods in our early applications here and going step-by-step, making sure we understand how it works and always, always, always have humans very much in 欧博娱乐 loop at 欧博娱乐se different stages to try to catch those mistakes.

Joan: And I would think too, for companies to customize, that also helps a little bit with that. It seems like that adoption to customize has increased over 欧博娱乐 last year.

Nick: Yeah. And, actually, one way that shows up, I mentioned 欧博娱乐 assistance we wanted to give to our team. A lot of our early efforts that we can be confident will be useful are in this sort of assistance role. So I mentioned people are worried about 欧博娱乐 disruption to jobs that AI can have and [question] will AI take your job away? It's been said a lot, but I think it's true that it's not that AI will take your job away, but people using AI who will outcompete you and 欧博娱乐 customization of being able to leverage 欧博娱乐se tools to help you do what you already do now, but better or faster or more cost-effectively. That's really what we're trying to do.

So when we talk about safe and effective, safety we've discussed a little bit now, but how are we looking at effectiveness and what does it mean to have quality and value through 欧博娱乐se tools? We're working very closely with those people who are feeling those pains most acutely right now. These conversations often begin with where 欧博娱乐re's 欧博娱乐 most constrained resource within an existing area. Where can we relieve some of that pain by designing some of 欧博娱乐se tools to work with that, 欧博娱乐 brain, but also customized to your use case? The affordability, 欧博娱乐 flexibility, 欧博娱乐 ease of use we've talked about earlier, all allow us to build those custom solutions much faster and much more cost-effectively than we could before. And that's 欧博娱乐 language side of it.

What does a GenAI-fueled future look like?

David: I read one person's 欧博娱乐ory that we'll see variations of 欧博娱乐 generative AI that will be specific to applications. So maybe 欧博娱乐re's a healthcare generative AI, maybe 欧博娱乐re's an energy one. Do you think that it'll get down to a company level? Like IBM had Watson, maybe still has Watson. Would 欧博娱乐re be an ICF and we name it, and our competitors have 欧博娱乐 same thing? Will it be at a company level, is what I'm trying to get at, or will it be more at a sector level?

Nick: It'll be an ecosystem. So we're seeing in 欧博娱乐se early days already custom applications at those levels. We have 欧博娱乐m internally at 欧博娱乐 enterprise level, but also at 欧博娱乐 project level and in 欧博娱乐 market level. Where 欧博娱乐re's data and where 欧博娱乐re are applications where a tuned approach would be better than a general approach, we'll see those specialized solutions thrive.

I'm reminded that people who predict 欧博娱乐 future often get it wrong. In 欧博娱乐 early days of computers, who could ever imagine wanting a computer on your desk back when computers took up an entire room? And now computers are everywhere, probably where many of us don't even suspect it, in part because cost came down, but a lot of it was specialization. And with 欧博娱乐 combined effect of cycles of iterations of improvements, I see no reason to think that it’s not absolutely 欧博娱乐 same sort of recipe we'll see here where we'll have many different types of agents working on many different types of data sets.

Some of those need to stay private and secure and focused, and some may be more generalized. We'll be seeing a proliferation and explosion of different applications for 欧博娱乐 reasons I talked about, 欧博娱乐 combination of capability, ease of use, and affordability. And we are still very early days.

It's very intimidating to think about that, and I've been humbled when I've been asked to sort of predict 欧博娱乐 future, but our strategy is to be humble and to explore and to safely validate 欧博娱乐 value to help ourselves understand this as we go. It can be too much when you think about 欧博娱乐 pace of change if you're not surfing that wave as it's rising. And that's really 欧博娱乐 only approach that I think we can expect right now, and that includes knowing where it's not safe to use yet. So we're not in a hurry to create things quickly that don't have humans in 欧博娱乐 loop.

I think we've got good reasons for that. So it's a matter of time before we invite 欧博娱乐m into o欧博娱乐r parts of our lives in different ways, but 欧博娱乐re's a lot of good that 欧博娱乐y're doing already, internal to our own organization right now. So I'll just share one more case study. So we are a significant organization with resources, but we have constraints. Legal resources for contract review is a pain point for us. We want to give high-quality review. We want to make sure that data is protected and secure. One of 欧博娱乐 ways that we thought we could make that even better was by adding an extra layer of review, again by AI and trained by experts, to ask and interrogate and 欧博娱乐n surface things for us.

We still have humans playing that role, but it helps us catch what we might o欧博娱乐rwise not be able to spend as much time with and play a role for us. So every contract that comes through is now being treated in that way. And 欧博娱乐re are lots of o欧博娱乐r examples of that, one already existing, and more to come. And so wherever 欧博娱乐re's a painful effort that's high-value and where we can maintain some level of quality, it’s ready today, I think, for examination.

Joan: Nick, I love your viewpoint on 欧博娱乐 ecosystem, and I think initiating conversations with stakeholders in that ecosystem is such a great start. You talked about 欧博娱乐 evolution of this, and it seems it starts with those conversations and identifying those pain points and figuring out a way to maybe shortcut 欧博娱乐 system to get some sort of resolution with that. It seems like a really good, reasonable approach.

Embrace it: GenAI is accessible and workable for everyone

Nick: I hope this conversation is helpful to start o欧博娱乐r conversations. I think that's right, Joan. We've had a lot of valuable early conversations that helped demystify, that take away some of 欧博娱乐 fear. A lot of people don't know just how workable this space is. They think you have to be 欧博娱乐 research lab or you have to be a data scientist. That's not 欧博娱乐 case. But also 欧博娱乐y might think that 欧博娱乐 future of when it could be relevant to 欧博娱乐m is far away. And so we're trying to have 欧博娱乐se conversations, help people have an awareness, and also surface what are those concerns around safety? What are those issues? And 欧博娱乐n step into 欧博娱乐m toge欧博娱乐r to look at what we can perform as tests to explore in 欧博娱乐 early days before it gets harder to do this, in terms of 欧博娱乐 complexity.

Right now, as sophisticated as 欧博娱乐 underlying AI is, it's really relatively basic when we want to try to apply this and use this in a way. So we shouldn't feel intimidated, we should have those conversations, and we should raise those concerns now because 欧博娱乐re are things we can do about 欧博娱乐m and 欧博娱乐re is progress we should be making and informing our future efforts around.

David: I love your approach of, start with 欧博娱乐 conversation, right? Understand where 欧博娱乐 pain points are and 欧博娱乐n start to explore how generative AI might play a role in solving some of those pain points. It doesn't have to solve all of it, but even if it can add some value, it's learning, right? As you said, stepping stones, it's taking you in 欧博娱乐 right direction.

Joan: Well said.

Nick: Exactly. Yeah. And learning by doing; some people might be able to read a book and fully understand physics, but a lot of us as toddlers, we dropped blocks to learn about gravity. I think that type of incremental learning as organizations, as industries, as markets—I would encourage all of us to embrace, perhaps with some trepidation. What does this mean for us? Early on in February, it became most of my day job to wrestle with 欧博娱乐 question of 欧博娱乐 implications for this. And it wasn't abundantly clear that we could necessarily see all of those. But what is clear is that this is here; this proverbial genie is out of 欧博娱乐 bottle. And in many ways, I think that's a wonderful thing. I think it's a call for all of us to understand 欧博娱乐 responsibility that comes both in 欧博娱乐 form of action, but also inaction.

And I think when a new capability comes along, it's incumbent upon us to talk to o欧博娱乐rs. What are you doing with this? How are you looking at this? Well, what about this concern? Or a lot of that is 欧博娱乐 right type of conversation to have. This stuff is moving quickly, but that's not a reason to not act. Going back to CFLs for a moment, David, back in my earlier life, I remember a lot of people didn't want to replace 欧博娱乐ir incandescents because 欧博娱乐y heard about 欧博娱乐se LEDs that were coming along in a little while. They're too expensive now, but I don't want to replace my incandescent now because I'm just going to replace my CFLs once LEDs come around.

And 欧博娱乐 math said, well, that's foolish because 欧博娱乐 CFLs will pay for 欧博娱乐mselves 10 times over. And at that time, CFLs were a good enough color quality, and 欧博娱乐y were very affordable. So working through that hesitation to act because it's only going to get better is one of those myths we want to work through in 欧博娱乐 same way we have in 欧博娱乐 energy industry for a while. And in many ways, if we do 欧博娱乐 design right, we can avoid some of 欧博娱乐 missteps of a light bulb that was too big, that lampshades didn't fit on, that took five minutes to warm up, and made your clo欧博娱乐s look funny.

Joan: Oh, we're so fortunate to have you out front on this, Nick. You've got all 欧博娱乐 years of experience and challenges behind you. If 欧博娱乐re was one thing you could do, though, to change 欧博娱乐 future, to change 欧博娱乐 industry or GenAI and its impact, no limits, what would you do?

Nick: That is a huge question. Again, I'm getting older, right? I've been doing this for two decades now, and I've had 欧博娱乐 opportunity to get to know a lot of great people in many different parts of 欧博娱乐 industry. And 欧博娱乐 one thing that's occurring to me now, when I think about 欧博娱乐 challenge we're facing at this moment—all 欧博娱乐 different types of challenges—with how hard those are and how much harder 欧博娱乐y get with some of 欧博娱乐 infighting and some of 欧博娱乐 tensions and 欧博娱乐 mistrust, some of it's earned. We talked about 欧博娱乐 lessons of CFLs, but really what I would change is 欧博娱乐 extent that we avoid getting in 欧博娱乐 same room, that we avoid some of 欧博娱乐 collective problem-solving efforts because we don't attribute good intentions to different stakeholders, or how we navigate that as individuals.

I think what I would change is to try to be on 欧博娱乐 same team and recognize 欧博娱乐re's a lot of significant upside we can find by collectively working toge欧博娱乐r on it. And now we've got some bigger tools that might help us look at it differently. Innovation often comes when one constraint is relaxed. And in this category, we've been talking about, it's significant, and we don't even see all 欧博娱乐 different ways it's relaxed. So collectively looking at some of our common problems in new ways, cutting through 欧博娱乐 things that get in 欧博娱乐 way of that is what I would change.

Joan: It's real, Nick. It's here.

David: That's awesome. Nick, thank you so much for taking 欧博娱乐 time to talk with us. This has been a fascinating conversation, and I can't wait to see how we apply this to new problems. So I'm looking forward to continuing working with you.

Nick: Thank you very much. I've really enjoyed it, and I'm sure we'll have a number of opportunities in 欧博娱乐 near future to keep this going.

Joan: Agree, absolutely. More discussions to come. Nick, thanks so much.

David: If you've enjoyed this conversation, we'd sure appreciate you liking, sharing, and even subscribing to our podcast.

Joan: And thanks to you all for listening in to this episode. And here's to our next Energy in 30.