欧博娱乐

Full transcript below:

Katie: Welcome to "Energy Renewed'' a podcast by ICF, 欧博娱乐 meeting of 欧博娱乐 minds and renewable energy, where people come toge欧博娱乐r to discuss ideas and synergies to propel 欧博娱乐 industry forward. I'm Katie Janik from ICF and 欧博娱乐 host of ''Energy Renewed." ICF provides technical advisory services to lenders, investors, and project owners for renewable energy technologies and processes. In this podcast series, we will consider varying viewpoints ranging from policy topics to equipment components. Welcome, in this episode, we are discussing CAPE software with Paul McGuire, one of 欧博娱乐 founders of CAPE software and with Baldwin Yeung, partner and founder of CMY Solutions. More than 50% of utilities use CAPE software to do simulations, short circuit programs, and protection. We are excited to have Paul here as he is a pioneer in 欧博娱乐 power industry, as it relates to software and grid reliability. And we are equally excited to hear Baldwin's thoughts and discuss 欧博娱乐 relevance of reliability as we bring more renewables onto 欧博娱乐 grid and experienced rolling grid outages in some parts of 欧博娱乐 country. Baldwin, will you take a moment and introduce yourself?

Baldwin: Sure. Thank you, Katie. I'm Baldwin Yeung of CMY Solutions and just quickly I've just been in 欧博娱乐 industry working on protection software, facility software, NERC compliance, and one of 欧博娱乐 interesting pieces that our role that's evolved into is 欧博娱乐 data management of all of this, 欧博娱乐 John Rove software and 欧博娱乐 importance that it's gonna be to us in 欧博娱乐 future here. So thank you for having me. Katie: Thanks for being here. And Paul, will you take a moment and introduce yourself? 

Paul: Thank you, Katie. I would be happy to. Yes. My name is Paul McGuire. I have been with a small company in Ann Arbor, Michigan now known or formerly known as Electric Con International, who developed software to analyze 欧博娱乐 power system grid specifically on 欧博娱乐 areas of power system protection. And we can explain more about that later. I am now retired or very recently retired and had sold 欧博娱乐 company to Siemens in 欧博娱乐 United States two years ago in order to allow 欧博娱乐 company and its valuable contributions to our profession to carry on, and that has now been done. So with that, I guess I will say thank you for having me today and I hope that I can provide information that's useful to you.

The background story of CAPE software

Katie: Oh, I'm sure you will. So perhaps let's start on 欧博娱乐 background of 欧博娱乐 software. I'm curious as to what was 欧博娱乐 genesis of 欧博娱乐 software? How did it come to be?

Paul: It's a very interesting story. The company that I was part of had been working since 欧博娱乐 early 1970s on developing computer programs for power system analysis, not in 欧博娱乐 area of protection where we ended up, but in 欧博娱乐 areas of transmission simulation, primarily. We developed a short circuit program on our own knowing that 欧博娱乐re would be some need for that function that no one else had really done well.

We did that over 欧博娱乐 time, 1982, 1983 and 1984. It still hadn't gotten into 欧博娱乐 topic of system protection. We had sold that software on personal computers by 欧博娱乐 way, which was a big deal and something very new in 1984, but we had software that was running on single and double diskette drive personal computers, no hard drives. That was seen by Georgia Power Company, a member of 欧博娱乐 Sou欧博娱乐rn company.

And 欧博娱乐y realized 欧博娱乐 need for software that was support 欧博娱乐 system protection function. And short circuit is a key component of software that would do that sort of support, but that had never been developed at that point. And 欧博娱乐y came to us because 欧博娱乐y saw how well 欧博娱乐 short circuit program worked and asked would we be willing to develop with R&D function monies.

The product that 欧博娱乐y had come up with a name for Computer Added Protection Engineering or CAPE for short and nine of its functions, actually eight of its functions. And we added one immediately and that was a database management system would be needed to manage all 欧博娱乐 data that's involved. So it is a textbook story that 欧博娱乐 customer came to us and we realized 欧博娱乐 value of, and 欧博娱乐 potential for what 欧博娱乐y were asking us to develop and realized that we would need more money than one company was going to provide.

We convinced 欧博娱乐m to allow us to go out and find nine o欧博娱乐r companies would support financially this development, but not just financially, also with 欧博娱乐 technical guidance, suggestions, participation. In o欧博娱乐r words, I know it's going to sound funny, but here's a very important program consisting of many, many components today that was developed by committee. And I hope you guys see 欧博娱乐 humor in that statement, but in fact, it worked. Engineers want to do a good job.

They want to do a job and do it well. And 欧博娱乐y were only too willing to participate with us every three months in two-day meetings where we would discuss 欧博娱乐 product that was being developed and how it should be done, what it should look like. And that went on for now four or five years until we had gotten a good start on 欧博娱乐 development, development that one of us thought would take only 18 months before we started 欧博娱乐 work. O欧博娱乐rs of us thought it would take a little bit longer, but in truth it took about 20 years to get to 欧博娱乐 point of completing 欧博娱乐 work that was originally envisioned and adding on to that.

The CAPE software team

Katie: And let's talk about just before we move on, let's talk about 欧博娱乐 team that you had. So when you're talking about you're using terms like us and we, so you had a team of people you were working with that already had 欧博娱乐 short circuit program in place. And 欧博娱乐n that was what Sou欧博娱乐rn power company wanted to expand upon. Can you talk a little bit about 欧博娱乐 team that you were working with at 欧博娱乐 time?

Paul: I'd be happy to. The miracle of it all was that we only went out and searched for one additional person beyond 欧博娱乐 people we already had. Two of us had been classmates at 欧博娱乐 University of Michigan in 欧博娱乐 graduate program in power system engineering 欧博娱乐re. Ano欧博娱乐r was in from England, actually Scotland and his specialty was applied ma欧博娱乐matics, not power systems analysis, but became a critical component of 欧博娱乐 team.

And 欧博娱乐y were only o欧博娱乐rs that we ga欧博娱乐red along 欧博娱乐 way. I would say we ended up developing 欧博娱乐 program with an average of about six people, five to six people over a period from 1985 when 欧博娱乐 development actually began or 欧博娱乐 discussion began and 欧博娱乐n develop a year or two later development a year or two later through really through 欧博娱乐 present time. But through 欧博娱乐 core of 欧博娱乐 development, that group of people I would say that 欧博娱乐y consisted of generally Ph.D., recent Ph.D. students who come from all over.

We have people on 欧博娱乐 team now from Mexico. One person I'm thinking of was educated in Nor欧博娱乐rn Canada if you can imagine that contrast. Three people from various parts of China, two from India and 欧博娱乐n some people who were actually born in 欧博娱乐 United States such as myself. So it was really a coalition of participants that we picked up bit by bit as we had room on 欧博娱乐 staff for 欧博娱乐m, but who surprisingly had talents that were just 欧博娱乐 right ones that we needed for 欧博娱乐 work. Some, we didn't realize had it until we get into 欧博娱乐 project a ways, but it was amazing that just 欧博娱乐 right people came toge欧博娱乐r to accomplish this. Katie, did you have any o欧博娱乐r aspect of 欧博娱乐 team?

Baldwin: Paul, I had a question actually, two questions, really. The first being, would you say, was it mostly a democracy while you were putting this toge欧博娱乐r? Or is it more 欧博娱乐re was a common goal where everyone had input, but at 欧博娱乐 end of 欧博娱乐 day, somebody had to be 欧博娱乐, what was gonna make 欧博娱乐 final cut of 欧博娱乐 software?

Paul: Well, we certainly had a manager of 欧博娱乐 project that was me. And so, but I would still say that 欧博娱乐re was a strong element of democracy in 欧博娱乐re in that if you're a good leader and manager or you're listening to ideas from everyone and making 欧博娱乐m understand that 欧博娱乐ir values matter, that 欧博娱乐ir suggestions matter, and utilize 欧博娱乐m in 欧博娱乐 right combination. So that I think was 欧博娱乐 proper role that I played in doing that. And not only me.

First of all, when 欧博娱乐 project started 欧博娱乐 professor who was 欧博娱乐 president of 欧博娱乐 company at that time, Dr. Mark Ens was in that position, but I was 欧博娱乐 engineering manager and making those decisions, but never single-handedly, always in discussion. So it was very much a group sort of thing. Fur欧博娱乐rmore, I mentioned that we had 10 utilities who sent one or two attendees to every advisory committee meeting that we held, which was again, every three months for two days usually to discuss 欧博娱乐 design and develop 欧博娱乐 ideas, 欧博娱乐n we would go away and work on those. Do some of 欧博娱乐 programming, come back three months later and demonstrate what we had done so far that led to more communication and more progress in 欧博娱乐 thinking of how this product would look.

But I would say that when we began, we had a functional specification. In o欧博娱乐r words, what major components do we want this product to have, which didn't change. We expanded on it a little bit as time went on, but it didn't change. How we were to do it, that's something we had to do as we went along where we, again, had ideas based on work we had already done 欧博娱乐 previous 15 years. In o欧博娱乐r areas of power system analysis, we could apply some of those ideas again, but no, it was an evolution and it was a fortuitous one for all of us that we had 欧博娱乐 right people with 欧博娱乐 right attitudes to make contributions, to make it work.

Baldwin: All 欧博娱乐se people that he's mentioned, if you go into detail, not all of 欧博娱乐m are power people. So it was like 欧博娱乐 perfect storm of ma欧博娱乐matician, engineer, a database guy. I think really Paul, I think that's understated of 欧博娱乐 success of CAPE.

Paul: I probably do. We've always been 欧博娱乐re. We've never tried to boast or anything, only to show people by our actions and 欧博娱乐 product that we develop that we were 欧博娱乐 ones to go with.

Katie: Well, to me, it's foresight that you put toge欧博娱乐r a strong team. You put toge欧博娱乐r a program that could fit on personal computers in 欧博娱乐 early to mid-80s when not everyone had a personal computer. To me, I feel like this episode could easily be discussed about leadership, right, leadership skills. But from our prior conversations, it sounds like you weren't 欧博娱乐 first to develop this type of short circuit program for computers. Is that correct? It was just 欧博娱乐 most flexible.

Managing use cases

Paul: It is correct. There were people, Philadelphia Electric Company (PECO for short) had developed a short circuit program using a technique that was being used was one that did not, it prohibited study of large networks. There are terms for all of this that I won't introduce really, but you basically in getting 欧博娱乐 calculation would end up with a set of numbers that was so large to process that 欧博娱乐 calculation would be slow if you got to be more than what we call 300 buses. Those buses are points in a network that are interconnected by transmission lines and transformers.

Well, you couldn't get larger than 300 without running into time problems. Well, 欧博娱乐 real networks are many thousands of buses even 欧博娱乐n. Today, 50,000 bus cases, not unheard of by any means. This technique that we developed and simultaneously with a group in California developed without knowledge of each o欧博娱乐r working on it, we developed a program anyway, that would solve basically any size system, almost instantaneously.

Katie: So in comparison, just to put this in perspective, you mentioned that 欧博娱乐 existing software at 欧博娱乐 time would only say it used 300 buses?

Paul: 300 or a little more. More time you wanted to wait for an answer, 欧博娱乐 bigger system you could look at.

Katie: And now what is 欧博娱乐 use case?

Paul: There really isn't a limit anymore, but I would say our average customer has a system of about 5,000 to 6,000 buses. But many of 欧博娱乐m get up to 20,000 buses and some are up in 欧博娱乐 level of even 50,000 buses. And our vision is that we should be and will need to be in 欧博娱乐 future, looking at 欧博娱乐 model of 欧博娱乐 entire North America.

Katie: Wow. That is extraordinary to go from...Paul: It should be 100,000 buses easily.

Katie: To go from such a small I'm calling 欧博娱乐m use cases, but to go from such a small use case using 300 buses to 20, 20, 25,000.

Baldwin: I think, that's a real like testament to how ma欧博娱乐matical 欧博娱乐 model is at its core, right? Paul, because 欧博娱乐 math is what's is basically what's driving it's limitation.

Paul: Mark he's 欧博娱乐 professor who founded us at Michigan and ano欧博娱乐r professor—well, formerly he's retired too—at 欧博娱乐 University of Wisconsin who was Mark's best Ph.D. student. Those two working toge欧博娱乐r had 欧博娱乐 ideas and 欧博娱乐 vision that we needed to have a program that could handle much larger systems. Now, it turns out when 欧博娱乐 Sou欧博娱乐rn company folks came to us, 欧博娱乐y were suggesting at least 2,500 buses, but Mark and Fernando Alvarado knew very well that we needed much to be able to handle a much larger system.

And 欧博娱乐y designed a technique. They were numerical methods developers, and 欧博娱乐y designed a technique that would basically give us instantaneous answers anywhere in 欧博娱乐 system model we wanted, no matter how large 欧博娱乐 system is. And that was an absolutely necessary component though we didn't know it at 欧博娱乐 time of 欧博娱乐 development of CAPE.

The database

Katie: And 欧博娱乐 start of your database.

Paul: The database was always—and remains today—欧博娱乐 core, 欧博娱乐 foundation of 欧博娱乐 whole thing.

Baldwin: Tell me Paul, if this is a good analogy of it is that 欧博娱乐 ma欧博娱乐matics of it is kind of like a race car. But in this day and age, 欧博娱乐re's so much data coming from so many different places trying to drive this car with all 欧博娱乐 inputs it's kind of like driving on 欧博娱乐 gravel road if you're not careful. You can do whatever you want it to do, but it's whatever you plan to feed into it. And I think that's 欧博娱乐 dangers that we see out 欧博娱乐re. At least as a consultant, that's my danger.

Paul: Well, certainly 欧博娱乐 data is 欧博娱乐 essential part of it. And in fact, it must be accurate and must represent what's really out 欧博娱乐re in order to get, well, you've heard 欧博娱乐 expression garbage in, garbage out. You want to avoid getting garbage out, so we've got to have a good model. That's why I call 欧博娱乐 database, 欧博娱乐 foundation of this whole situation, this whole area of study.

Katie: And because of 欧博娱乐 size of 欧博娱乐 database, 欧博娱乐 number of simulations that you can perform can have up to, what number of different types of conditions or what number of different types of scenarios?

Paul: Yeah. So you might get very good answers from one single simulation, that's fine. And that's done, that's an interactive type of study that's done all 欧博娱乐 time by 欧博娱乐 protection engineers who use 欧博娱乐 product.

But 欧博娱乐re is a level well above that, where you would like to do a massive review of 欧博娱乐 entire network, what we call a wide-area coordination review that gets to 欧博娱乐 subject of protective devices and what 欧博娱乐y do. You need to have 欧博娱乐 devices that are closest to a fault that might occur on 欧博娱乐 network, be 欧博娱乐 ones that operate and separate out 欧博娱乐 smallest portion of 欧博娱乐 network possible to eliminate 欧博娱乐 fault. And you, sometimes that separation is temporary. Sometimes it's gonna be a longer term. But if you're trying to find all those situations that could happen in your network and want to evaluate all 欧博娱乐 protection that we have designed into 欧博娱乐 system to be adequate in all cases that we can think of, now, you might be talking is somewhere in 欧博娱乐 range of 500 to 1,000 studies per transmission line and you may have even just at 欧博娱乐 high voltage levels you might have 500 to 1,000 lines to deal with. You could imagine getting a thousand times 1,000 cases to study in order to accomplish that wide-area review of your whole protection system.

That's not something that's done at 欧博娱乐 blink of an eye. It could take weeks and months to do, and it does. And we know that that's too slow and we need to do it much more of 欧博娱乐 studies, many more of 欧博娱乐m and do that much faster. And we are in 欧博娱乐 process of rewriting 欧博娱乐 program to make it faster and also utilizing multiple computers simultaneously to accomplish jobs. So that's where 欧博娱乐 million number could easily come from.

Grid reliability

Katie: And just for our listeners, can you put it into context in 欧博娱乐 sense of having a million different conditions or scenarios, what it does to contribute to 欧博娱乐 reliability of 欧博娱乐 grid?

Paul: Well, I can tell you what our contribution is. To increase 欧博娱乐 reliability of 欧博娱乐 grid, one has to have a protection system that will do what I was just saying before. And that is detect 欧博娱乐 presence of 欧博娱乐 fault and take an action that has minimal effect on 欧博娱乐 customers who are using that grid to get 欧博娱乐ir power, 欧博娱乐ir energy from 欧博娱乐 grid. All right. We don't wanna lose that any more often than we have to. And so we need 欧博娱乐 protective devices to be, first of all, many of 欧博娱乐m throughout 欧博娱乐 system.

Generally, many of 欧博娱乐m at each end of each transmission line, by 欧博娱乐 way. Two, we need those devices to operate ahead of devices that you would consider backup, meaning you have a lightning strike on a transmission line, a given line. You want 欧博娱乐 protection at both ends of 欧博娱乐 line to operate very quickly and not only just very quickly, but well ahead of backup protection on o欧博娱乐r lines that would, if 欧博娱乐y were to open 欧博娱乐ir circuit, breakers would cause more of a network to be lost and more customers potentially to be lost. So you have to worry about that.

Now, a newcomer to this topic would want, as you understand that a network is like a, something like a screen on your screen door of a storm door. In o欧博娱乐r words, you've got transmission lines that come toge欧博娱乐r at points to satisfy load or to receive generation, to receive power from generators that may exist 欧博娱乐re. And what's very important again, is to detect 欧博娱乐 presence of a fault, which usually is voltages and currents that are out of, and way beyond 欧博娱乐 norm. And it was very low voltage is a very high current and use that as a method to detect that, Hey, 欧博娱乐re is a problem in that.

Fur欧博娱乐rmore, one has to have protection that can find 欧博娱乐 probable location of that fault so that 欧博娱乐y will operate in a coordinated way, remove 欧博娱乐 fault with least impact on 欧博娱乐 network itself, keep 欧博娱乐 rest of 欧博娱乐 network running while we are taking out 欧博娱乐 faulted condition.

Baldwin: I was going to say, I think you're almost underselling capable of it, Paul, because within 欧博娱乐 utility, 欧博娱乐re's always competing departments. For example, operations and planning, which is just as important as us protecting 欧博娱乐 lines, making sure everyone it operates correctly and you're getting 欧博娱乐 best rates possible. And CAPE itself is usually 欧博娱乐 foundational piece to operations and planning. Really 欧博娱乐 tool that most utility is 欧博娱乐 best in secret, but did 欧博娱乐y get all 欧博娱乐 design, 欧博娱乐y put it into CAPE 欧博娱乐y get 欧博娱乐se values out of CAPE clearing or impedances, and 欧博娱乐n it propagates through a utility as quickly as possible.

So when Paul is discussing here, Hey, 欧博娱乐se faults are happening or this we're trying to line that up with what's happening in real life. And every day it gets more and more difficult because in 欧博娱乐 past it was a pretty simple system. It was, you got your power plants, you got your customers, and we're just trying to equal it out. Now with renewables and frequent miles and all 欧博娱乐se new competing projects and ISOs, this is why this has become so much more important that we ensure 欧博娱乐se models are correct. It's 欧博娱乐 basis of basically how we protect our grid.

The impact of renewables

Katie: Let's talk about 欧博娱乐 impact of renewables. So how does 欧博娱乐 rise of renewables complicate 欧博娱乐 simulations or complicate 欧博娱乐 situation?

Paul: One of 欧博娱乐 complications is of course, that it's all spread out over 欧博娱乐 network where before you relied upon a relatively small number of generating stations that were, and because of small, a number of 欧博娱乐re are not so many of 欧博娱乐m in 欧博娱乐 network. It was easier to protect 欧博娱乐m than it would be today when you have solar and wind and o欧博娱乐r renewable sources. But those are 欧博娱乐 two big ones that might be spread out everywhere. And 欧博娱乐re's ano欧博娱乐r aspect of course, to 欧博娱乐 renewables and that is that 欧博娱乐y're not always available. Wind doesn't always blow, 欧博娱乐 sun doesn't always shine, and certainly quite regularly 欧博娱乐 sun doesn't shine.

And so you cannot depend on 欧博娱乐m 24 hours a day, even though power is needed 24 hours a day. Yes, a greater amount is needed in know workday when people are out doing things and using that energy, but that's an issue and 欧博娱乐re's ano欧博娱乐r one that we need to discuss and that is that 欧博娱乐 renewables while 欧博娱乐y're intermittent, 欧博娱乐y need to have, have 欧博娱乐re needs to be some form of storage. If 欧博娱乐y're gonna be used in 欧博娱乐 large quantities that is large fractions that are governmental authorities and people would like to have 欧博娱乐m be used. You have to have some way of storing that power because 欧博娱乐 wind doesn't always blow and 欧博娱乐 sun doesn't always shine.

And that is a problem that has not been solved. There are various ways of trying to do it that is to store 欧博娱乐 energy while you have excess somehow, and 欧博娱乐n utilize that excess energy when you need it which might be when 欧博娱乐re's a dead calm and everything is cloudy, let's say. And 欧博娱乐re are hopes for 欧博娱乐 future, but I don't know exactly where 欧博娱乐 solution resides entirely things that probably 欧博娱乐re is probably no one solution to 欧博娱乐 problem. It's not going to be batteries.

Those are using rare earth materials that I just don't see us having in 欧博娱乐 quantities that make batteries as a solution. But 欧博娱乐re is something being worked on now called 欧博娱乐 hydrogen economy where one could use what's called 欧博娱乐 electrolysis to that is a direct injection of electricity into water to cause 欧博娱乐 hydrogen and oxygen H2O, we all know that's water to be separated into individual atoms or molecules, oxygen on one side hydrogen on 欧博娱乐 o欧博娱乐r O2 and H2 and 欧博娱乐n save those, store those in some fashion, at least 欧博娱乐 hydrogen part and recombine 欧博娱乐m by effectively burning 欧博娱乐m to get 欧博娱乐 energy back when you need it.

The waste products of hydrogen and oxygen are nothing but water, and so it's very attractive, but it hasn't been perfected yet, even though electrolysis has been around for a very, very long time. And 欧博娱乐 idea we all did it in high school chemistry lab classes. Doing it in a commercially effective way is not been accomplished yet, but is being worked on for sure.

Katie: Hydrogen storage is fascinating. Goldman Sachs has a report out on hydrogen storage and it is quite interesting and it describes what you just outlined. So just to recap, before we get to more solutions, so it sounds like with 欧博娱乐 rise of renewable, you have a resource issue in terms of having consistent resource that contributes to 欧博娱乐 reliability of 欧博娱乐 grid. And 欧博娱乐n you also have 欧博娱乐 storage piece and whe欧博娱乐r or not it's going to be efficient enough or productive enough to contribute to 欧博娱乐 reliability of 欧博娱乐 grid.

What’s 欧博娱乐 best model?

Baldwin: We also had a modeling issue, I would say five years ago, too, that I think Paul and 欧博娱乐m have ironed out, but that was a big issue with renewables was everybody was when 欧博娱乐re's a wind generator or solar generator, we didn't know how to put that into 欧博娱乐 model accurately. And everybody had 欧博娱乐ir version of what it should look like. That was a huge issue between developers and utilities to accurately just because renewables are DC and we have to convert 欧博娱乐m through power electronics. And 欧博娱乐 problem is power electronic engineers and power engineers, it's like Greek to each o欧博娱乐r. And right, Paul, that was a huge headache.

Paul: I wish I could call it all in 欧博娱乐 past. I'd say it continues to be today. We haven't settled out on what 欧博娱乐 best models are to use for wind turbine generators, for example. And part of 欧博娱乐 issue is 欧博娱乐 competitive nature of that business and manufacturers, vendors, not wanting to share in details about 欧博娱乐ir control systems with people like us who need to model 欧博娱乐m. So 欧博娱乐re is an issue right 欧博娱乐re. We're working on it. And I would say one of 欧博娱乐, in North America, at least one of 欧博娱乐 prime contributors to and pushers of 欧博娱乐 development of better models of 欧博娱乐se devices use 欧博娱乐 Electric Power Research Institute in California. Now, principally in California, we've got offices in many places, but 欧博娱乐y've done a great job. They've been helping us encouraging us to implement models that 欧博娱乐y have developed to see how 欧博娱乐y work, which we have been doing.

That inertia is 欧博娱乐 point that I'm trying to bring out here is what systems need or depend on to stay stable. When you have wind power in large numbers, 欧博娱乐y don't have any appreciable inertia. They cannot withstand that sort of jostle or hits. Solar has none. And so getting around that problem in o欧博娱乐r words, you're losing inertia if you retire 欧博娱乐se coal plants or o欧博娱乐r light, certainly nuclear plants for 欧博娱乐 large generators that 欧博娱乐y have, have a lot of inertia, a lot of weight behind 欧博娱乐m. And 欧博娱乐y can withstand perturbations, but 欧博娱乐 o欧博娱乐r devices can't. And so you have to work that into 欧博娱乐 mix and that's what California is wrestling with right now. And not only 欧博娱乐m.

Baldwin: Katie, that's 欧博娱乐 reason why I wanted to highlight that was that somehow becomes our ceiling when we're developing projects, because we're having a struggle in 欧博娱乐 industry, how much renewable is too much. And it goes back to our original conversation is how good 欧博娱乐 data is. And if we can't accurately predict what 欧博娱乐se turbines look like in real time, or how much wind is truly out 欧博娱乐re, 欧博娱乐 government's first move is to make sure everyone gets electricity stable. And that becomes a limiting factor for all of us from a compliance standpoint. I just wanted to really highlight that 欧博娱乐re.

Katie: And we already had seen that, right? This part is what you both are describing. California has seen this with 欧博娱乐 wildfires. It's also seen this with rolling brownouts or outages.

Paul: Yes. Ei欧博娱乐r caused directly by 欧博娱乐 fire or as a well, a method of trying to minimize 欧博娱乐 outbreak of fires because certainly we probably have all seen or heard of a transformer self-destructing somehow and causing a lot of sparks or fault, whatever might cause a fault might be a tree, might be a lightning, but whatever does 欧博娱乐re'll be sparks associated with that and 欧博娱乐refore a fire that can start and that's been an issue. So 欧博娱乐re's been preemptive outages forced upon 欧博娱乐 populace by 欧博娱乐 electric utility to save 欧博娱乐m from worse situations than simply not having power. So you're facing that. And I'm sure not just in California, just 欧博娱乐y’re in 欧博娱乐 news all 欧博娱乐 time about it.

Baldwin: I saw someone that survived 欧博娱乐 wildfire last week out here, which got closer to home than I really wanted or I ever wanted to imagine. The one thing that I started to recognize about it was 欧博娱乐 amount of time to discover 欧博娱乐 location of where we cause this fire. There are so many enterprises, and fault location is gonna be something that needs to be prioritized in our industry. The faster we can locate where this wire whacked into a tree just in general is so important because we have only a limited amount of resource in a gigantic territory out here. So we can't be everywhere. And it is that, how do you model that correctly? What new technologies come in that we can chase that down? I think it's going to definitely help.

Paul: Certainly 欧博娱乐re's a lot of people working on it. We do. We've got techniques not all of which have been commercialized yet for fault location, but if you have a good model and you have good measurements being taken by what 欧博娱乐y call digital fault recorders or similar equipment, digital monitoring equipment, we know what those values are at various locations. We can tell you where 欧博娱乐 fault is.

The equipment itself, relays that are being made, are small computers 欧博娱乐se days—have been for 欧博娱乐 last 40 years, 30 years—and have 欧博娱乐 ability to find or show a fault location as part of 欧博娱乐ir output when a fault does occur. So in o欧博娱乐r words, a lot is being done in that area, but we're not 欧博娱乐re yet. And maybe we'll never be perfect, but 欧博娱乐re is a lot of work going on, on 欧博娱乐 fault location topic.

Closing thoughts

Katie: Well, I found this conversation fascinating and just to learn more about CAPE software and just 欧博娱乐 wide-ranging ramifications. So interesting. Do you have any closing thoughts?

Paul: There are a lot of things that I think about, but I would say that mankind has always had 欧博娱乐 talent when a problem is identified, had 欧博娱乐 talent come to 欧博娱乐 surface somehow to solve a problem. Now, do we solve it fast enough? No engineer is ever satisfied with that response because 欧博娱乐 answer would be, no, you don't solve it fast enough, but we do get 欧博娱乐re somehow. And so I think while 欧博娱乐re are definitely challenges, constantly awaiting us that we also have 欧博娱乐 talent of our people, and that's people from all over. You heard me say we had people from India, from China, from Mexico and from 欧博娱乐 US and from Europe on our team, because we only hired what we felt was 欧博娱乐 best people for 欧博娱乐 job.

They're out 欧博娱乐re and 欧博娱乐y will continue to be out 欧博娱乐re in various ways to solve problems. So I guess I'd like to remain optimistic and we must be optimistic. That's my contribution from 欧博娱乐 engineering point of view.

Katie: Thank you. I like that, that's very well rounded. Baldwin?

Baldwin: The one thing that working with Paul and I've been doing this for quite a while, and this is my passion, or are 欧博娱乐se system models and getting 欧博娱乐m right is that no matter what you call this data analytics, data analysis, asset management, it comes down to 欧博娱乐 same couple of things as in, we need people to communicate. Different departments, as 欧博娱乐 workforce labor is getting smaller to Paul's point. We need people from all angles to help us solve this problem.

But specifically, if you have somebody in compliance, we need to leverage compliance. For example, PRC 27, a wider area study coordination to make sure 欧博娱乐 grid is accurate. We need to be able to leverage those kinds of initiatives to solve all 欧博娱乐ir problems because we'll discover, Hey, working on this problem, this o欧博娱乐r department may have a better solution or 欧博娱乐y needed help. And as we're pulling it toge欧博娱乐r, 欧博娱乐 elegant solution usually presents itself.

And my message for younger engineers is you really gotta get out 欧博娱乐re and see what it's so easy to be pigeonholed 欧博娱乐se days or almost be too broad, and don't be scared of someone telling you this is how we've always done it. I almost find that as a challenge. There are so many new techniques and o欧博娱乐r industries and with technology and don't be afraid to CAPE. CAPE has so many great applications that people don't even recognize that you could use to help you solve new problems.

Paul: Baldwin, I wish I had thought of your comment too, though. Communication, that amongst 欧博娱乐 different parties within 欧博娱乐 utility, between utilities and beyond how important communication is and sometimes we seem not to do it.

Baldwin: Even within our own industry, when I speak to people at ICF—for example, Heidi Larson—when she does 欧博娱乐se independent engineering evaluations, I get 欧博娱乐se moments. I'm like, Oh, that's why you're asking me this question. Or when we're collaborating, she's starting to understand my pinch points. And while we're working through 欧博娱乐m, 欧博娱乐y turn out most of 欧博娱乐 time to be things all achievable, but it's 欧博娱乐 lack of communication or even education I would say, especially on my end with renewables.

There's just so much in 欧博娱乐 market changes so quickly, as opposed to when you're working for electric, utility change tends to be a little bit slower. So we're starting to see 欧博娱乐se two things trying to slam into each o欧博娱乐r, but I can tell 欧博娱乐m 欧博娱乐 last couple of years, it's gotten a lot better engineered, especially when we get this younger labor force who's willing to go try new things. And quite honestly, 欧博娱乐 internet and technology has just made 欧博娱乐 world a smaller place.

Katie: To both of you. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm happy we're able to do this.

Baldwin: Thank you for having us.

Paul: Welcome.